No 5 – World Records and the Ultimate Throws
The limit of human potential is what has always fascinated me. What is the human body ultimately capable of? Just how big, strong and fast can we get?
For us throwers, the bigger question is, how far is it physically possible to throw a shot/ discus/ hammer or javelin?
Are we nearing the peak of human fitness or do we still have room for improvement?
Throwing and weight lifting world records have increased enormously over the last 100 years, but does anyone know how close to perfection they have become?
The other reason to ask this question about the absolute limit of performance, is because if we can model the “perfect” throw, then we can try and teach everyone from a young age a technique that resembles the “perfect” throw rather than what we do now which is to copy the previous generation and experiment.
This post is going to quickly cover what the current world throwing and weightlifting records are, and then I am going to look at some maths.
Now the maths is too complicated for me to do, so what I would love to find is someone who can work it out for me. Please pass this post on to any sports scientists, mathematicians, physicists or biomechanics experts!
Or if anyone has already worked out the maths, could you please forward me the reference?
World Records for Olympic Weight Lifting, Power Lifting and Throwing
Now for the Maths
I thought this would be easy and that I would find someone who has already worked this out for me, however, after some literature searching and reading lots of papers and watching lots of youtube clips, I actually can’t find the answer.
What is the physically possible distance you can throw a shot/discus/hammer or javelin?
In theory, the shot putt should be the easiest to work out because the maths of throwing a sphere are easier than having to work out the aerodynamics of the other three. But I still couldn’t find anyone who has the answer.
See the references below for papers, articles and clips that are similar but not quite there.
Factors that affect a throw:
1. Velocity (speed or momentum) at the point of release
2. Angle of release
3. Height of release
4. Wind conditions – head wind, tail wind, side wind, density, temperature
5. The aerodynamics of the implement – spin, balance, wing lift, shape,
6. Technique within the circle
7. Athlete’s size
8. Athlete’s strength
Everyone knows that if you model the flight of a gunshot, then the best angle is 45 degrees, because that will allow the longest flight path of the bullet before it hits the floor.
However, for throwing events it is not that simple! The aim is to release the implement as fast as possible and for shot putt, javelin and discus, the human arm and shoulder are strongest in a flatter arc between 30 to 40 deg.
This is why most people can bench press more than shoulder press or jerk.
So, for the maths of the perfect throw you should be able to simplify the model to remove points 6, 7 and 8. Because the aim of the athlete in the circle is to generate as much force as possible and release it at the best angle. So this can be summarised by points 1, 2 and 3.
For most throws you would want a tail wind and as little air resistance as possible.
For discus, you will want the discus to spin as much as possible to provide it with momentum and stability, plus you want a slight head wind that will allow it to act as a wing and produce lift, keeping it in the air for longer. This makes the maths of the discus more complicated than I am able to do.
Maths of the Shot Putt
1. Velocity = approx. 33 miles/h (15m/s)
2. Angle of release = 36 to 40 deg
3. Height of release = shoulder height approx. 1.9m on average
Wired magazine predict that if Ryan Crouser could increase his release velocity by 0.2m/s then he could throw over 24m.
This paper does an excellent job of explaining the difficulties with creating a model based on athlete height, angle of release, strength and velocity but doesn’t take it to the conclusion of working out the maximum possible distance! It does corroborate the suggestion that 30 to 40 degrees of release allows the maximum force generation by the athletes.
Maximum distance of the shot putt currently thought to be about 24m?
Maths of the Discus
1. Velocity = 26.6m/s
2. Angle of release = 36.6 deg
3. Height of release = shoulder height approx. 1.8m on average
4. Angle of attack (arm movement?) = -10.25 deg
5. Distance = over 74m
https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/41690232.pdf
This paper by Ching-Hua Chiu (2008) was the best I could find for explaining the maths of the discus and as you can see from above, it can be quite complicated! They use their methodology to predict if someone could throw further than the current world record and they have produced the above numbers in their model. This suggests that a throw over 74m is possible, however, they haven’t predicted what the limit of human potential is!
Could a 2m tall, very athletic male release the discus at 36 deg and 30m/s and throw 100m? I don’t know!
Conclusion
As far as I can find, no one has calculated the perfect distance of the perfect throw for any of the implements.
The maths exists but it just needs someone to plug in the numbers. That would be a guaranteed niche paper if anyone wants to do it?
The best theoretical distances for the Shot Putt is over 24m and Discus is over 74m, based on current papers.
I think it would be worth someone doing the maths for this, so that we can have a perfect model to aim for. Also, we may realise that like the 4 minute mile myth, we could be way off the maximum human potential, or maybe we are almost at that limit?
What happens to the sport if the top three athletes can all hit the maximum possible distance? Is that the end of the sport? Is that possibility in the near future?
For the shot and discus, I hope the above shows you roughly what you need to be aiming for. The right angle with the fastest release you can achieve!
References
· https://www.wired.com/video/watch/why-it-s-almost-impossible-to-shot-put-24-meters
· https://www.quinticsports.com/performance-analysis-shot-put/
· chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.brunel.ac.uk/~spstnpl/LearningResources/ShotPutLab.pdf
· chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/1742-6596/1778/1/012038/pdf
· https://core.ac.uk/download/pdf/41690232.pdf - Discus maths
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· https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1CjFP-G1cX-kjUhB8j204xS75Zed4EdIBK96dGTgeuqs/htmlpresent
· https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_discus_throw_world_record_progression
· https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:World_records_in_athletic_throwing
· https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_hammer_throw_world_record_progression
· https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_javelin_throw_world_record_progression
· https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_javelin_throw_world_record_progression
· https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Men%27s_shot_put_world_record_progression
· https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_world_records_in_Olympic_weightlifting
· https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Progression_of_the_deadlift_world_record
· https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6075108_Optimal_discus_trajectories
· https://www.quinticsports.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Case-Study-15-Projectile-Motion.pdf
· https://www.researchgate.net/publication/40032611_Individualized_optimal_release_angles_in_discus_throwing 35-45 deg
· https://www.researchgate.net/publication/8974223_A_kinetic_analysis_of_discus_throwing_techniques
· https://www.researchgate.net/publication/313080867_Kinematic_analysis_of_discus_throwers
· https://www.researchgate.net/publication/306054763_Kinematic_Analysis_of_Olympic_Discus_Throwers
· https://www.researchgate.net/publication/291770346_Behaviour_of_the_discus_in_flight
· https://www.researchgate.net/publication/21721180_The_biomechanics_of_the_discus_throw_A_review
· https://www.researchgate.net/publication/12065698_Dependence_of_release_variables_in_the_shot_put
· https://www.researchgate.net/publication/11982542_Optimum_release_angle_in_the_shot_put
· https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fspor.2022.853536/full
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https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0021929007002758